An idea for a creature/character RoW build

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:44 am

Just an idea that I had kicking around:

Basically it's a demon; although,

1 Feral Human [Product of Infernal Dalliance (Yugoloth)][Blood War Squaddie]
2 Conduit of the Planes 1 (Sphere: Fire)
3 Conduit of the Planes 2 [Blitz]
4 Conduit of the Planes 3 (Sphere: Carnage)
5 Conduit of the Planes 4 [Harmless Form]
6 True Fiend 1 (Tanar'ri) [Large Size], [Extra Arms]
7 Fiendish Brute 1
8 Fiendish Brute 2 [Fiendish Invis (Breath)]
9 Fiendish Brute 3 [Greater Teleport]
10 Fiendish Brute 4 [Huge Size]

eh, it's not really fleshed out; the idea is that you pick up Harmless form; Fiendish Invisibility and Large, Huge sizes and as many arms and claws as you can get.

really, this build is meant to put in levels that grant fiendish bonus feats when specific fiendish bonus feats become availible.

basically this is the "Ogre Ninja" idea.

A massive hulking combat brute, that is really good at sneaking around.

At lvl 10 they'll have
Feral:
Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake; +10' speed; Darkvision 90'; Fast Healing 4; Claw attacks that deal 1d8 base (1 size larger, onoes i has race ability, holds two longswords; change to 2d6 in large and 2d8 in Huge);

From Size increases
+4 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -4 int, +2 wis; +6 Nat armour [Feral]
+16 str, -4 dex, +8 Con; +5 Natural armour [Large, Huge]
+3 Stat 1, +3 Stat 2, +7 (3+FB lvl) Nat AC

Total stat mods of:

+20 str; -6 Dex; +10 Con; -4 Int; +2 Wis; +18 Nat AC

with 4 claw attacks that swing for 2d8 + 10; against a flat-footed opponent. ugh, low bab means that blitz adds.. +6 at most. nm, conduit is a 3/4 class.

Basically it's a very beefy version of the invisible stalker (at least 17 rounds of invisiblty between 3 rounds of holding your breath).

It can pounce; make 4 attacks at +16 (+10 str, -2 size, +6 BaB, +2 Invisible) vs flat-footed targets.

Each 2d8+10 damage attack can each initiate a grapple with large or smaller creatures and this creature has a grapple mod of at least +22 (+8 size, +10 str (min), +6 bab); if a grapple is initiated, then it can start raking (2d8+5; x2 per round while grappling).

This creature also has quite a few immunities; a lot of resistances and can cast fireballs and scorching rays that deal Vile damage.

It's skill set is pretty limited; probably spot, listen, hide, move silently.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:55 am

A Tanar'ri Yugoloth seems a bit iffy. Other than that, looks like a fun character. You could get a bite from the PoID feat to avoid redundancy. Poison or disease might be more useful than blitz, what with your low BAB.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:00 am

I'd throw generic versions in a campaign as "Demon Soldiers".

Overall very nice. It's like a Girallon, the 4-armed gorilla, with Half-Fiend and Barbarian, but better.
http://images.google.com/images?&q=girallon

One beef: the Fiendish Invis (Breath) is an odd fit. I'd make that "as long as immobile", really. Makes for great ambushes in many environments, disguised or not, since they don't have to break out of it while waiting.
Other methods of invis exceptions:
"While charging"
"While in half-light or worse conditions"

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:36 am

I don't have actual books, so my knowledge of natural weapon rules is a bit sketchy, but the SRD seems to suggest that creatures with a natural slam attack are allowed to use it once per arm if they're large or larger. One level of the Dungeonomicon Monk would give you a natural slam attack, which I believe does a base 3d6 damage for a huge creature and adds 1.5xSTR damage if it's used as your primary weapon. And you can make iterative attacks with it, which...I have no idea how that stacks with the multi-arm thing. That can't possibly translate into 8 slams/round when you hit +6 BAB and 4 arms, can it?

And I imagine you probably can't make a claw attack and a slam attack with the same limb (though I can't find anything that actually says that), but I imagine there's probably still some options there. At minimum, it looks like you can get a natural weapon for every arm with a single-level dip, which may free up resources for something else. And I imagine grabbing a fighting style and the ability to substitute WIS for your size-penalized DEX when calculating AC and reflex saves couldn't hurt, either.

There's also fiendish feats that give you an elemental damage aura and constriction damage, each worth 4d6/round, which might be another way to boost your grapple damage. Not sure if they're better than feats you've already got, though.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:43 am

Do you think that, with Elemental Aura altered to "Bludgeoning damage", a Fiend could properly emulate a flurry of bodily tentacles?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:07 pm

sigma999 wrote:Do you think that, with Elemental Aura altered to "Bludgeoning damage", a Fiend could properly emulate a flurry of bodily tentacles?

....

that means that we need a .... Tentacles Sphere; that grants the [Tentacled] subtype, that in turn grants Immunity to bludgeoning.

So..... could work.

I prefer the "hold breath" invis, since it's the least limiting, and that this character will get retarded Con, so their invis will both last a long time and will work while attacking. Since it's Improved Invis, and is good to keep active all the time.

Also, the Fiendish Invis feat is:

Fiendish Invisibility [Fiend]
You cannot be seen.
Prerequisite: Character level 6
Benefit: You are naturally invisible, as with the spell improved invisibility.
Special: Fiendish Invisibility always has a flaw, something that will allow your character to be seen. Examples include:

* Invisible in Light: If you are ever in shadowy illumination, you are visible.
* Visible by Breath: You are only invisible if you hold your breath for 3 rounds first. When you next exhale, you become visible again.
* Invisible on Stone: Your character is invisible when touching the ground. While standing on worked floors or flying, you can be seen.

Fiendish Invis + Rogue is also a great combo.

Catharz; good point. Do "claw attacks" count as one natural weapon? Heh, heh.

I'm thinking something that either deals Str or Dex damage.

Also, there's no redundancy.

You get 2 claws (your main hands; which still work as hands) at lvl 1 with PoID. At lvl 6 you get 2 more arms; those change into claws at lvl 7 when you take Fiendish Brute 1; unless all of your hands turn into claws?

.... I'm an idiot. I forgot that I grabbed the Feral template.

Okay, so 4 poisoned claws and 1 bite. Plus poisoned rake attacks. That's not bad at all.

Besides, you can be a petitioner of one of the 4 types with Conduit; have one subtype with your birth parents with PoID and pick up a 3rd with True Fiend.

The Yugoloth born character that decides to embrace tanar'ri lust for sheer power and chaos is one explanation for a Yugoloth Tanar'ri.

You could be born of a PoID Tanar'ri and a Yugoloth; be born a Yugoloth (since their blood is stronger); reclaim your other parent's Tanar'ri heritage, and take on some other fiendish group's teachings via conduit of the planes.

I asked this a while ago and people seemed alright with it, as long as the build is legal.

Manxome, I could lose the level of ... nothing actually; for some reason i was thinking True Fiend, but it's granting a bonus feat. All of the class levels occur precisely at breakpoints that specific level-constrained feats become available.

For example, Huge Size needs lvl 10; so the only way to grab it is to get a fiendish bonus feat at that level. Likewise with Harmless form, it has lvl 4 as a pre-req.

The level of monk is a good idea though. A lot more AC would result from it.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:23 pm

Fiendish Invis + Rogue is also a great combo.

As in the build....

1. Rogue 1 [PoID, 2 Claw Attacks]
2. Rogue
3. Rogue 3 [Stealthy]
4. Rogue
5. Rogue 5
6. True Fiend (Tanar'ri) [Fiendish Invisibility (Invisiblity by Breath)] [Extra Arms]
7. Rogue 6
...

Four claw attacks that deal 1d6+3d6 SA damage all the time ain't too bad. Grab an other set of arms at levels 12 and 18 to keep damage high.

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:57 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:Manxome, I could lose the level of ... nothing actually; for some reason i was thinking True Fiend, but it's granting a bonus feat. All of the class levels occur precisely at breakpoints that specific level-constrained feats become available.

For example, Huge Size needs lvl 10; so the only way to grab it is to get a fiendish bonus feat at that level. Likewise with Harmless form, it has lvl 4 as a pre-req.

The level of monk is a good idea though. A lot more AC would result from it.

If you're willing to use your second pair of arms only for slam attacks and forego the claws (you're going to get your fifth and sixth arms in two levels anyway, and I don't see an obvious way to get claws on those), then you can start taking Fiendish Brute earlier and swap out Conduit levels for a class that gives bonus feats more often, which would potentially free up a couple levels without losing any feats. You'd lose at least one of the spheres, though, and maybe a BAB.

Or you could give up Harmless Form, though that will presumably make it...difficult to interact with "normal" society.

Also, there doesn't seem to be any text in the RoW Fighter restricting what types of feats you can select as bonus feats, so that might be another option. I seem to recall someone saying they were supposed to be [Combat] feats, though, so I don't know if that actually works.

EDIT: Yet another feat option: with 2+ levels of Conduit, you gain a bonus [Fiendish] feat every time you gain expert access to a sphere. You could swap out two levels of Fiendish Brute for one more level of Conduit and keep the same number of feats if you pick the same sphere 3 times.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:45 pm

In any case, you can see the sort of back and forth that fitting in fiendish feats into a build is like.

....frankly, it's fiendish.

However, I'm sure that K and Frank are either tickled or appaled at that pun.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:03 am

Judging__Eagle wrote: The level of monk is a good idea though. A lot more AC would result from it.

Remember that you add only half of the lower bonus.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:18 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Judging__Eagle wrote: The level of monk is a good idea though. A lot more AC would result from it.
Remember that you add only half of the lower bonus.

It's an actual armour bonus?

Ah well.

A good fighting style would be one that bypasses hardness and DR and is usable with all weapon attacks.

In any case, it's not going to happen with this build. Because if not, I'll just go crazy trying to put in everything that's awesome.

That's one trick that I've had to learn, keep to a strict idea of what the character is. The feats and abilities that you want will show themselves, or you just make ones up (given a bit of practice and somee feedback from here).

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:38 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:It's an actual armour bonus?

Armored in Life is. If you were talking about the fighting style, my bad. That's just a straight-up +4 dodge bonus.

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:31 am

The option to substitute WIS for DEX in calculating AC (and reflex save) is also probably worth a lot for a creature with -6 DEX and +2 WIS stat mods.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:28 am

Manxome wrote:Also, there doesn't seem to be any text in the RoW Fighter restricting what types of feats you can select as bonus feats, so that might be another option. I seem to recall someone saying they were supposed to be [Combat] feats, though, so I don't know if that actually works.

I'm not sure about that their bonus feats, but I do know that the feats they randomely pick up have to be combat feats so the Fighter can't hulk out, which kinda sucks... well, they can if they also have harmless form, soo... ok then.

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:00 am

Yes, the Fighter's "Problem Solver" ability is restricted to [Combat] feats, but his bonus feats have no text at all--they only appear in the table.

Had a random thought regarding fiendish invisibility. One of the option is invisibility in bright light. One of the armors from RoW produces a constant daylight effect...

So people would know you were in the room because it's bright. And, OK, evil outsiders take damage just for being in the presence of the effect, but almost everything in the Tome of Fiends is available to good characters as long as you have a plane of origin in the lower planes (there's even one prestige class that requires you radiate goodness), so that's not necessarily a deal-breaker. And you get to be invisible all the time, unless you're in the presence of a magical darkness or such that can overpower the daylight effect, and in that case I suspect you have total concealment anyway. And the armor gives you a 90' fly speed (good maneuverability) at level 10, which can't hurt.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:14 am

Uh... that PrC that requires you to radiate goodness is for lvl 5 paladins and lvl 7 clerics.

It's more of a Tome of Celestials PrC that Frank and K wanted to publish.

It's actually a good class, I wrote up a character that had levels in it.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:29 am

Manxome wrote:The option to substitute WIS for DEX in calculating AC (and reflex save) is also probably worth a lot for a creature with -6 DEX and +2 WIS stat mods.

Good point. I assumed wisdom as a dump stat, but it will still probably be higher than Dex.

Manxome wrote:Had a random thought regarding fiendish invisibility. One of the option is invisibility in bright light. One of the armors from RoW produces a constant daylight effect...

Either the light you produce is invisible and you're visible, or the light you produce is visible and you're invisible. Neither is especially great for stealth.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:13 am

Also, it's situational based.

If I told you that you had to pick if light, holding your breath or standing on stone is what could make you invisible; which would you pick?

The 1st one is for monsters, since PCs tend to have lights. As is the third, since the creature can be place in a stone environment, and it's not a big deal; but it's as useful as a Nymph's Blinding Beauty ability in a party.

Sure she can blind the enemies, but she can just as easily blind the whole party.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:04 am

Judging__Eagle wrote: If I told you that you had to pick if light, holding your breath or standing on stone is what could make you invisible; which would you pick?

I'd pick Flyby attack while invisible with the condition "visible when touching the ground" but that's just cheap, natch.

Nothing wrong with having the image of a voluptuous elf burned forever in your retinas.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:20 am

Nothing, except that you can't see her until she decides to fix your eyes.

Man, that would be a wierd relationship.